Monday, December 8

Toby Gibson reminds us it’s been 28 years since John Lennon’s death. We’ve already discussed at length that very dark moment just before the Reagan era, but it was an event that affected many of us deeply, provoking black humor and profound sorrow and coloring our attitudes about peace, love and understanding. (I can still recall every detail of that other Monday night.)

How about if we change gears, though, and talk a little more about what Lennon and the Beatles meant to us? For me, they were the original touchstone for what being in a rock-‘n’-roll band was supposed to be. How about you?

251 thoughts on “Monday, December 8

  1. I love the spectacle of big Mal Evans on the tambourine. Mongo only pawn in game of life! (Another tragic story there.)

    That’s Klaus Voorman on the bass, isn’t it? If I could have that furry vest today, I’d be a happy man.

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  2. A man of many layers…and paradoxes. Like Kerouac. One wing in the shadow, one wing in the sun. I wrote my first “serious” poetry the night he was shot, and then writing became a habit. I also sang “Across the Universe” to both my children when they were babies. John Lennon’s music has touched my life in so many ways.
    I miss George Harrison too.

    This song resonates with any great spiritual teachings (by the druid dudes!):

    “We’re playing those mind games together,
    Pushing barriers, planting seeds,
    Playing the mind guerilla,
    Chanting the Mantra peace on earth,
    We all been playing mind games forever,
    Some kinda druid dudes lifting the veil.
    Doing the mind guerilla,
    Some call it the search for the grail,
    Love is the answer and you know that for sure,
    Love is flower you got to let it, you got to let it grow.”

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  3. I admit I’ve never been a huge fan of the beatles music, but I love the song Yer Blues from the White Album. Mostly I love the idea that they took a simple blues song and turned it into something so complicated that it seems almost impossible to play. Are there two different rhythms, or three? I can’t figure it out.

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  4. I’ve never been truly conflicted about the Beatles themselves — loved ’em since I was a baby — but I have had a difficult relationship at times with Beatles fandom. (Mark David Chapman being an extreme negative example.)

    Punk gave that “phony Beatlemania” a kick in the ass (even if it gave way to some phony Clashmania et al.) — and as far as those “one down, three to go” jokes … Well, John Lennon would certainly have been making them himself at age 18!

    Sometimes I questioned whether I could be a real hipster* and appreciate the Beatles as much as I have — and consider them so fundamental to shaping the image of a rock band. But hey — there’s a reason the Ramones named themselves after Paul McCartney’s first nom de rock!

    I don’t know if you even have to like their music to appreciate them as archetypes: one part Elvis, one part Marx Brothers (or Stooges).

    ——————--
    *”Real hipster” is being used facetiously in this context. 🙂

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  5. What freaks me out about John is that he was only 40 when he was shot, 3 years younger than I am. He always seemed older to me, even now. I think he was the great communicator of our time (through music), the only other person coming close being Bob Marley. Listening to his music now makes me sad and I can hardly do it….he would have been a good one to have around these last 25 or so years to help make sense of things.

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  6. I’m another who was never that much of a Beatles fan, and I want to suggest that many of our generation (myself included) are unable to achieve sufficient distance from the music to appraise it intellectually or dispassionately (and maybe we shouldn’t). That is, we have known it so well and for so long and associate it so intimately with our own lives that we can’t really hear it, at least not with fresh ears. Maybe it’s different for musicians, but it seems to me that most people almost automatically either presume the Beatles’ pre-eminence or dismiss them arrogantly (which trap I fell into at times). I’ve heard them sniffily written off, for example, as “wonderful music…for children.” At this late date, I actually agree with that whole-heartedly; it’s just that I don’t see it as a negative. I’m not saying that’s all they were by any means, but peerless art for children strikes me as a significant accomplishment indeed.

    As to Lennon, I remember watching the football game (which I never did) during which his death was announced and the feeling of schock at school and all around for several days after. My parents were Brits and Beatle fans younger than Lennon himself (my Dad saw the Beatles in London, remembers only girls screaming), and they were hit pretty hard, too. I agree with what Eric says above about Lennon and Marley, but I think both were sort of sanctified by their early deaths, with the result that the image of the saint with the guitar gets in the way of our sense of the actual man who was good, yes, but complicated--and more interesting because of it.

    I know I’m a long-winded bastard and don’t know really know what I’m talking about. I’ve actually been a little gun-shy here because, the last time I spouted off arrogantly, an offended Beat Farmer righteously slapped me down. I will now attempt to perform the same feat again: That Ringo was never as fun to listen to as that Keith Moon. Are you hearing me, Starkey?

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  7. Matthew: ha! Ozzy is funny. what I want to know is, did he really snort that line of ants?
    And who’d have thunk he’d become a reality tv star? Don’t you think John and Yoko would have their own show on Mtv today? A frightening, but somehow realistic thought.

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  8. Simon: A Beat Farmer beat-down is a mark of distinction, man! 🙂

    >>Maybe it’s different for musicians, but it seems to me that most people almost automatically either presume the Beatles’ pre-eminence or dismiss them arrogantly (which trap I fell into at times).

    Yes, I think you nailed it there. Trying to strike a nuanced tone is difficult, given those extremes and the ponderousness of history. (Speaking for myself, though, they still tickle all the synapses they did when I was new and they were, too!)

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  9. I discovered at a young age that playing the Beatles was a great way to infuriate my mother, who was convinced that they were permanently stoned and that their long hair would diminish all her sense of safety in the world. Seriously, she just lectured me two weeks ago about my son’s mop top and how he is starting to look like “The Beatles”! We’re not cutting it Mom.

    My first album was Rubber Soul -- still get chills hearing “I’m Looking Through You”.

    Funny, I’ve always called certain albums a band’s “Sergeant Pepper album”, as being the yardstick for a really cohesive concept album, other album’s that meet this criteria are: “Village Green Preservation Society” by the Kinks, “Tommy” by the Who, “SF Sorrow” by the Pretty Things….”Satanic Majesties Request”…mmmmm..slightly short of the mark….some great songs tho’. “Ziggy Stardust” “Dark Side of the Moon” “Night at the Opera”…etc.

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  10. I’ll second the remembrance of early exposure to the Yellow Submarine film, summer of ’69 with my dad. I remember being sorely disappointed to learn 10 years later that it wasn’t their real voices. I still love the part at the end where it’s really them, with the multilingual translation of “All Together Now” rolling by.

    John was, and still is, the standard against which I measure musical genius. Melodies and lyrics for songs like “Girl”, “She Said, She Said”, “Hey Bulldog”, “Dear Prudence”…these are all still breathtaking for me. Plus, he was a great vocal performer: his version of “Twist and Shout” has that visceral raw quality that never gets old.

    I could go on and on in this vein, but you get the picture. We all know what we lost.

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  11. Sorry. I know exactly how you feel.

    At least no Meanies were harmed during the production of the movie.

    It’s almost refreshing to hear that in 2008 there’s still someone who feels threatened by a Beatles hair cut!

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  12. I just Googled the phrase “the Sgt. Pepper’s of.” Here is just a fraction of the results:

    • Is Joshua Tree the “Sgt. Pepper’s” of the 80’s?
    • Fear of A Black Planet is the Sgt. Pepper’s of hip-hop.
    • A pioneer in Jesus Rock and an influence on Dylan during this period was Larry Norman, who released dozens of records over his career including 1969’s Upon this Rock, “the Sgt. Pepper’s of Jesus Rock.”
    • Roberts’ CD Pop Fly, a Parents’ Choice Gold Award winner, was recently named among the CDs on Amazon.com’s Best Children’s List 2008. A visitor of Amazon called the CD, “the Sgt. Pepper’s of children’s albums.”
    • Here’s what Dr. Barry Ancelet, professor of folklore at the University of Louisiana at Lafayette, has to say about Bon Rêve: “It’s the Sgt. Pepper’s of Cajun music. It’s so strong in so many areas: performance/musicianship, the poetry, the conception, the whole album working together as a sort of a thematic unit.”
    • Lifted by its lush, inventive arrangements and Way’s dynamic vocal performances, THE BLACK PARADE effectively stakes its claim as the SGT. PEPPER’S of the brooding Myspace set, and secures My Chemical Romance’s shadowy space in rock history.
    • Blur’s Parklife might be the “Sgt. Pepper’s” of the 1990s.
    • [KKR’s 1989 purchase of RJR Nabisco is] the Sgt. Pepper’s of [private-equity deals]: oft imitated but never topped --when adjusted for inflation.
    • Herbert, Bi and Barone spent three months in London with the producer Phil Manzanera recording “Severino” (1994), considered by many revewers the “Sgt. Pepper’s of 80’s generation” of the Brazilian Rock.
    • [RE Lee “Scratch” Perry’s “Roast Fish, Collie Weed, & Corn Bread’]: A friend of mine once described this LP to me as “The Sgt. Pepper’s of Ganja”

    If we take off the “‘s” from “Pepper’s,” Google tells us that:

    • Suse 9.3 Professional [is] The Sgt. Pepper of [Linux] Distroes
    • I am going to go the full distance on this one and call Bryan Scary‘ debut album, The Shredding Tears, the Sgt. Pepper of 2006.
    • Who’s going to come up with the Sgt. Pepper of Napster? Probably nobody who’s active today. [2002]
    • The Orb’s Adventures Beyond the Ultraworld has often been called The Sgt. Pepper album of ambient music. [Getting meta here, the thread this comes from goes on to speculate about the whole “Sgt. Pepper of … ” phenom.]

    Editor’s note: Personally, I think “Revolver” is the Beatles’ “Sgt. Pepper.” 🙂

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  13. I added an “is” to the google and got:

    Enter the Wu-Tang is the Sgt. Pepper’s of Gangsta Rap.

    Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah -- Giant Monsters All-Out Attack is the Sgt. Pepper’s of Godzilla movie.

    Black Celebration by Depeche Mode
    they say this is the “Sgt. Peppers” of Gothdom, hands down.

    Radioheads In Rainbows is the Sgt. Peppers of Generation Y.

    London Calling by the Clash is the Sgt. Peppers of punk.

    The Fugs “It Crawled into my Hand” is the Sgt. Peppers of the truly underground.

    What are you the Sgt. Pepper’s of? It’s a personal question. Think about it.

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  14. Evidently Michael wasn’t the only one to partake. Who would have thunk???

    • The composer Frantisek Kotzwara died from erotic asphyxiation in 1791, probably the first recorded case.

    • Sada Abe killed her lover, Kichizo Ishida, through erotic asphyxiation in • 1936, proceeding to cut off his testicles and carry them in her handbag for a number of days. The case caused a sensation in 1930s Japan and has remained one of the most famous Japanese murder cases of all time.

    • Stage and screen actor Albert Dekker was found in 1968 with his body graffitized and a noose around his neck in his bathroom.

    • The artist Vaughn Bodé died from this cause in 1975.

    • Progressive rock musician Kevin Gilbert died from this in 1996, as did drummer Robin Hanssen.

    • The death in 1994 of Stephen Milligan, the British Conservative MP for Eastleigh, was a case of autoerotic asphyxiation combined with self-bondage.

    • Michael Hutchence, lead singer of INXS is rumored to have died from auto-erotic asphyxiation in 1997, although suicide was the official cause of death.

    • A more recent case is the death in 2004 of the extreme-right-wing National Front party member Kristian Etchells.

    And these are only the famous ones!

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  15. Few would have expected Stephen Milligan, the British Conservative MP for Eastleigh, to become the “Sgt. Pepper’s” of autoerotic asphyxiation. Born to a working-class British family, Stephen was an indifferent student, more likely to sit through class with a brown paper bag over his head than to attend to his O-levels.

    That indifference changed overnight when the sleepy British town of Eastleigh was shaken by the autoerotic-asphyxiation craze popularized by such American stars as Little Richard, Buffalo Bob and a young Ted Kennedy.

    Soon young Milligan was skiving off class to asphyxiate autoerotically in clubs with names like the Slipknot and the Scarf and Stick …

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  16. I made it up. 🙂

    It was actually Hubert “Huffer” Humphrey, the gaily epauleted and gold-braided Sgt. Pepper of Democratic machine politics.

    Hey! I made that up, too! I am the Sgt. Pepper of quasi-historical bullshit! LOL

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  17. >>>London Calling by the Clash is the Sgt. Peppers of punk.

    I dont agree… I think the Sgt Peppers of punk rock has to be Machine Gun Etiquette by the Damned.

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  18. There was a pizza place in Cardiff — near the original Lou’s Records — called Sergeant Pepperoni’s. I think I actually went there with Dave Ellison once.

    It was not the Sgt. Pepper’s of pizza parlors.

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  19. LOL! Simon, I love you. That last paragraph … Dude, that’s incredible. (Note that I already characterized “Revolver” as the Beatles’ “Sgt. Pepper.” For the record, I think “Rubber Soul” is merely the Beatles’ “Revolver.” The White Album is probably their “Rubber Soul.”)

    PS: BTW, I also dig the fact that we all got just maudlin enough about the Lennon anniversary, then continued along our merry way, sowing gallows humor and bizarre subcultural tangents.

    Somehow I think John would appreciate it. 🙂

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  20. Er, I’m very fond of you, too. And sorry I swiped your joke. That I did so unaware just goes to show that you ARE Sgt. Pepper, your influence as pervasive as our very air. And if you’re the blog’s Sgt. Pepper, then maybe I can be its BeeGees’s 1st: winsome, but derivative, funny-looking, and vaguely connected with the Isle of Man…

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  21. Is that where we used to get the pizza with asparagus on it? Asparagus is the Sgt. Peppers of pizza toppings.

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  22. Oh, Kristen … RE the “Yellow Submarine” Beatles impersonations: I hate to burst anyone’s bubble a second time, but all of Leighton’s “ad-libs” between the cuts on the Gravedigger V album “All Black and Hairy”?

    Professional voice talent bought and paid for by Greg Shaw. Sorry.

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  23. <>

    omg. that made me lol.

    i miss john. he was my age when he died. and i wish he was in his 60’s now. sad.

    but i KNOW he’d love this conversation.

    for the record, asparagus and artichokes are the sgt. peppers of pizza…

    and fear of a black planet as the rap peppers? hell yes.

    lori, i am craving a d.p. now, too.

    i won’t even touch the michael hutchence thing. 😉

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  24. This might be schmaltz … But I just came across this Oct. 2, 2001, performance by Cyndi Lauper that evokes both 9/11 and 12/8/80.

    I was never a Lauperophile, for the record. And I’m not even sure I can critique it as a performance. But wow, total flashback to being in NY in early fall 2001, before the Bush administration co-opted the finer feelings that tragedy evoked and brought us Freedom Fries and “Mission Accomplished.”

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  25. Wow. That does hit a nerve, doesn’t it? What a beautifully expressive face!

    1980- Cold War, return of draft registration, listening to old peacenik music while organizing protests. Getting called a communist and other fun names for saying the mujaheddin hadn’t convinced me they were noble freedom fighters, that the U.S. arming them scared me more than the Soviets.

    9/11- thinking the radio host had gone too far with tasteless humor, then looking out my office window at the smoke. Didn’t want to leave my boss alone with a project she was stressed about, so ended up being the only car on a 20-mile stretch of the always-clogged Capitol Beltway that afternoon, trying not to think “eerie” over and over like a mantra. Processing that and just getting pregnant all at once.

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  26. Just read this zany thread.

    The Beat Farmers’ Sergeant Pepper’s is my uncle’s wedding video. When Country Dick leered at Grandma during “Little Ball of String,” everyone went wild- even Great Aunt Thelma and Uncle Harold.

    Rock’s Sergeant Pepper’s is “Dark Side of the Moon.”

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  27. OK, I watched it again. I like it. We were all trying really hard to make some sense and some beauty in those weeks … There was something elegiac in New York (and I’m sure in DC, Robin) that I never experienced before or since on such a scale. It was also scary as hell.

    I’ll never forget how much it took out of me every day just walking through Penn Station with all the memorial flyers posted, bracing in case something blew up.

    That video is a show-biz moment … But New York is a show-biz center, and that’s cool, too.

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  28. It sunk in slowly. I remember riding the Metro in morning rush hour that Friday. Everyone was quiet for over 30 minutes. No political chatter. I knew we’d changed. We’d lost something. And that I also couldn’t at that moment turn to the person next to me to ask something about a policy or a campaign.

    A before-after dividing line in my life.

    DC still does a lot of bracing. When I first moved here anyone could practically breeze through the White House with impunity. Now I go through metal detectors to meet with obscure bureaucrats out in the burbs. There’s still a little shudder before every major public gathering.

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  29. There was a big line drawn between East and West that year. Going back to San Francisco in 2003 was like a time warp, the security was so much more lax.

    I’d only moved to New Jersey in April 2001, and the events of September and after marked a major disconnect with the coast I’d so recently left.

    It was crazy … People breaking down and crying in the streets for months afterward, all those flyers with faces of the dead, soldiers all over the place … A UPS truck outside our office had some white powder that shut down the street, while a couple of friends were caught in the anthrax scares at the news studios … Had an news interview with a company down by Ground Zero just a couple weeks after the attack — the whole place smelled like burnt metal. (Who the hell knows what I was breathing, huh??)

    It goes on … A motorcycle’s gas tank blew up in the street outside our office last year — flash of light, bang!, actual heat radiating through the window. My first thought was a bomb — if I’d stayed in SF (where I was for Loma Prieta), I’d probably have thought “Earthquake!” 🙂

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  30. I have a hard time getting too choked up about 9/11. Americans have killed thousands of innocent Iraqi and afghani women and children and continue to do so every day.

    We killed 2.5 million innocent people in Vietnam.

    Gulf of Tonkin…weapons of mass destruction…what’s next??

    It made me sick seeing everyone wearing the FDNY shirts.

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  31. Just found this thread/topic, and am scratching my chin wondering why no one mentions this is the same DOD as Darby Crash. What do I win???

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  32. I could have sworn that was mentioned. Odd, very odd.

    You win 100 punk points toward your very own Jonas Brothers vinyl jacket with plastic studs.

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  33. Oh, man! (like Dora’s Swiper) How many points for a whole jacket? I got to get in on that competition. You had to mention the plastic studs, didn’t you.

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  34. In an earlier thread, Paul Kaufman remembers: “On December 8, 1981, I was thrown off the air by the Vice Principal for hosting the John Lennon/Darby Crash Memorial Show, marking the one year anniversary of the demise of two of my musical heroes. Guess which part of the show proved unpopular with him?”

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  35. RE 9/11: I’ve been in four situations (I can recall) where the urban landscape suddenly seemed very fragile … The 1977 New York blackout; the 1989 Loma Prieta quake in San Francisco; Sept. 11 in New York; and the massive blackout that hit New York and much of the eastern U.S. six years ago this week. (I’d brought the kids to work the day of that last one, so I had small ones with me and a freaked-out spouse across the Hudson!)

    I was in the 1965 New York blackout, too, but I was just shy of nine months old at the time. 🙂

    Those big disruptions taught me object lessons about the limits of our control over our environment — even one as manifestly artificial as a big city.

    They were also scary as hell — but man, how interesting to be there when the assumptions about modern convenience and safety are in question!

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  36. Ahhh, yeah- 9-11 freaked me out for a few days- left me feeling very vulnerable on a tiny island in the pacific- and then was processed and compartmentalized in my strange brain that lets me do that- stuck in there with Jonestown and the PSA flight 182 crash and all the other bizarre stuff we see but generally aren’t physically involved with but still have had to come to terms with over our lifetimes.

    I do much better with disasters I’m in the middle of than with stuff on the news. I go into crisis mode when there’s an earthquake or power outage or hurricane, and just put out fires and keep moving forward and doing what needs to be done. Seeing the stuff in the news I am helpless- it’s bigger than me and far away and mostly doesn’t make complete sense to me. Plus there’s my doubtful, cynical nature that makes me wonder how much of it is accurate and why they are telling me the precise things they are telling me, or what am I supposed to be distracted from when they have my attention focused on this? The older I get the more apparent it becomes to me that it’s a much more complex world than just good guys and bad guys.

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  37. >>I do much better with disasters I’m in the middle of than with stuff on the news.

    Toby: TOTALLY. If I hadn’t been in one of the cities actually hit on Sept. 11, it would be different in a tangible way. I actually had to Escape from New York that day, on a ferry, and got hosed down in my business clothes for bioweapons.
    I’ve been worried that my previous comment maybe came off like everybody who Wasn’t Here doesn’t have a right to an opinion. But just like you say, Toby: it’s an accident of where you are when stuff goes down. If I’d moved to NY six months later, I’d have experienced it differently. (Actually, I might have stayed in Cali, ’cause NY was a little SCARY for a year or so after that!)

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  38. … E.g., Hurricane Katrina: Certainly a bigger disaster than Loma Prieta in terms of lives and property, and I care very much about the people who suffered and followed the events very closely from New Jersey. But I wasn’t in the middle of it, right? It’s just … Different.

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  39. >>I do much better with disasters I’m in the middle of than with stuff on the news.

    Well said. When you’re there, you can do things, make decisions, make reasonable attempts to be useful. When you are removed from things you care about, so often all you can do is feel sad and helpless.

    I think everyone with any access to the news was in some way “there” for 9/11. The experience varied by specific place, but it hit everyone. I was sad when the Bush admin spun it as something that only grieved America when it started out as a shared human experience.

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  40. One of my big feelings immediately after seeing the news that morning was that our world may never be the same anymore. It was the idea that no one would ever have the audacity to attack us that left us vulnerable.

    I understand about the need to blow off how so much of it became co-opted by pop culture and was just contrived and superfluous, but I think the loss of life was increasingly devastating the closer you were to the scene of the disaster, and the sudden knowledge that we were never as secure as we had felt previous to that day was just completely unsettling. I mean- I’m pragmatic- I always knew that someone could. But realistically it seemed like a far fetched scenario. All of the sudden it was not a far fetched scenario- it was very real.

    The other unsettling thing that came from that was how it further divided the country’s political extremes. All of the sudden so many armchair cowboys were ready to take up arms and “kill themselves an Ay-rab”. Widening the gap between classes and political extremes to me seems like a valid way to keep people from coming together to make a decision on what to do with a corrupt and self-serving administration.

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  41. >>I was sad when the Bush admin spun it as something that only grieved America when it started out as a shared human experience.

    Robin: Me, too. It was a moment when we realized the last superpower could be wounded, too, and the rest of the world seemed ready to rally around us, at least on a human level. A little subtlety, a little humility and reflection … The terrible price those people and their families paid could have bought something pretty valuable for the world.

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  42. >The other unsettling thing that came from that was how it further divided the country’s political extremes.

    >The terrible price those people and their families paid could have bought something pretty valuable for the world.

    And my family. We were always fine with our differing opinions before then. Then it got so tense and accusatory. An uncle sent a family-wide e-mail about the “Muslim threat.” I replied as gently and diplomatically as I could, explaining that I had watched the explosions with Muslim colleagues who were just as scared, just as much American targets as any of us. Haven’t gotten an e-mail from that uncle since. Like you said, Matt, really the experience illuminated so many subtleties and nuances, provided an opportunity to bond as fellow humans. Maybe it still can.

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  43. >>The other unsettling thing that came from that was how it further divided the country’s political extremes.

    >>We were always fine with our differing opinions before then. Then it got so tense and accusatory.

    Toby, Robin: I’ve spent a lot of time re-running that scenario … What if this event hadn’t been co-opted for short-term political gain?

    Probably an impossibility, considering the toxic partisan atmosphere we were already swimming in. But still a source of regret — for me, anyway.

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  44. in most bourgeois manner i had been shopping for a doggy-door at the very back of a home depot at 6:45 that morning. one young worker told a friend in the employees’ lounge that a plane had just hit the twin towers. this triggered my memory of a couple horoscopes…one from the village voice’s rockie gardner who
    most poetically described the week ahead as one with generals on the march and fires from the skies…..that scope gave me the creeps but only reinforced a prediction some several months ago that america would be attacked from the east. in fact this group of astrologers were so convinced of this notion that they confronted the incoming bush adminstration with a request that they post-pone the inaugural by 20 minutes in order to alter the delineation of future events!!!!

    i quickly decided on which door to buy and rushed home…..i had quit watching tv by this time but my kids lived with me and did watch the thing so i was able to view the ghastly spectacle…..just as it was announced that a second plane had hit wtc. i happened to have some beer and vodka in the house…..i watched in horror and cried and screamed and sobbed drank and called my girlfriend of eight months ago and broke up with her again.
    she was in shock also…..none of us would ever be quite the same.

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  45. I love trying to figure out who everyone is and if we know them. Saw Zeitgeist and Loose Change as well as a few others. It’s unfortunate I think we’ll never get to fill in all of the blanks- too much trickery goes on behind closed doors that will never see the light of day. But I also think there is more to it than the straightforward and easy answer.

    There were also a lot of odd coincidences besides whatever the horoscopes were (not discounting astrology- just lumping that together with other odd items that may have by chance foretold the future.) I don’t remember the name of the band but a hip hop band had to pull millions of covers that were printed weeks prior that basically depicted a 9-11ish situation. Also wasn’t there a clancy book where a plane flies into the Pentagon?

    Hiroshima/Nagasaki was like the last straw- we had already destroyed Toyama and most of Tokyo, claiming deaths around 100,000 and 90,000 respectively- way more than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined at 80,000 and 40,000. (For comparison’s sake- Hamburg was arial bombed by us and the British working together and we killed only 40,000- Dresden was around 30,000, and the numbers decline radically from there.) We were at war with Japan when we bombed Hiroshima- albeit we bombed Hiroshima after our intelligence already knew Hirohito was going to surrender, and was just trying to figure out the terms of the surrender that were acceptable (Disclaimer: this according to Howard Zinn- the worlds most liberally slanted historian.) But some of the reasons we were at war with Japan were pretty valid. If you ever take a trip to the South Pacific and get to talk to some of the people there, they show no love to the Japanese because the Japanese were basically working their way up through the Pacific committing outright atrocities all the way up. They were committed to world domination, had a zealous nationalistic fervor at their beck and call and had zero feelings about human rights for their enemies. War is never “fair” or “right” . Oddly enough that bombs anniversary was a few days ago. I’m probably the only one here that didn’t realize that, aren’t I? /:-\

    Documents uncovered in the last ten years revealed that there’s a great probability that we bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki to keep Russia out of Japan. They were already in Cahoots with the Chinese and were gaining ground- the Germans were defeated (I think!) and the russians declared war on Japan on my birthday.

    some interesting history here:

    http://www.cfo.doe.gov/me70/manhattan/hiroshima.htm

    http://www.cfo.doe.gov/me70/manhattan/potsdam_decision.htm

    In answer to Bruce’s completely obvious and totally off topic question: what a stupid question you ask.

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  46. I just noticed the Vincent Bugliosi mention up there- not too very long ago he released a book on the Kennedy assassination (JFK) that is pretty outstanding. He breaks it down into what people were doing throughout the day, quarter hours here and there, JFK, Jackie, Oswald, Jack Ruby, some cops, etc… A very interesting way to format that particular book as it’s really easy to mentally walk step by step through the chain of events with him.

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  47. We’ve never gone to war to stop the atrocities perpetrated on others. Poland -- Hitler, no. Killing fields -- pol pot, no. Zimbabwe -- Mugabe, no. Iraq, no. Bosnian ethnic cleansing, no.

    I didn’t think anyone on CHE bought into this mindless 9/11 patriotism conspiracy. Every country is as good as the next -- all people love their countries.

    It’s absurd to call anyone “stupid” on CHE…can’t you just disagree with someone on 9/11 or Justin Timberlake and realize it may just be a difference of opinion, education, aesthetic values…?

    Questions to ask self:

    1)How homogeneous do I want to make my little world?

    2)Could I POSSIBLY be wrong about anything?

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  48. “I’m just breathless
    I never thought that I’d catch this love bug again
    Hopeless, head over heels in the moment
    I never thought that I’d get hit by this love bug again”- J. Bros.

    Oh, Toby, I really want the jacket. Please explain that point system.

    0
  49. The point system is arbitrary- he who feels it, knows it. 😉

    The jacket transcends both time and style. You could be Tony Manero, you could be Carlito Brigante, you could be Bowie or Chrissie Hynde.

    All I know is that when you wear it you have a soundtrack- which various from person to person. My little brother would put it on and Marvin Gaye would immediately croon, “Lets get it ooooonnnnn”. My soundtrack might go like this:

    I am Vinylman
    Dont wear leather and dont give a damn
    Plastic chains and rubber galoshes
    cause great pain in half-baked moshes.

    (I stole the first couple lines from Vision skater and all around super good guy Owen Neider from Perdition. He was singing about Eric The Dode if I’m not mistaken. Scott Kelly from Neurosis might have some rights to that too.)

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  50. we went to war with japan for
    1) oil
    and
    2) we needed an entry into the war against hitler.
    since japan and germany had an alliance-pact
    being at war with japan meant officially being able to finally wage war
    against germany.

    we WANTED japan to attack us.
    actually we NEEDED them to attack us…..we just had no idea they would fly all those planes on a one-way way collision-course with
    pearl harbor.

    as for the a-bombs we had two different types and we had a need
    to know that they both worked as they were designed to.
    otherwise they were just sitting there and what good is that?!?!

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  51. to be clear as to point 1…it was japan that needed the oil and were placing great demands on the us for it’s supply.
    they gave us a 12-point set of conditions and demands as to a new trade agreement…and said the 13th would be issued on sunday if the first 12 weren’t responded to by week’s end.

    we chuckled.

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  52. Oh hey- I’m not proclaiming myself any kind of expert. I was just really taken by the People’s History of the United States- I liked his liberally slanted take on history- at worst it made everyone discuss some stuff that needed to be discussed (small pox laden blankets? Never happened.) I’m open to all kinds of other facts and hypothesis- I just haven’t got the time to read everything on any subject, and appreciate it when someone does and paraphrases the basic gist of the matter for me. Thanks and Aloha.

    That’s what I mean about Zinn- he’s super thorough and a really neat guy, but sometimes he’s so liberal and on such a mission to validate his point he leaves out tons of stuff other people have already covered.

    Funny thing- Every time I go to the North Shore I glance up at the Koolau mountain range and look at that gap where the planes flew through (over Waianae and Makaha, on their way to Pearl Harbor) and I appreciate just what that must have looked like to the pineapple and Cane and Taro farmers and I have to appreciate both the resiliant nature of the Hawaiian people and the craftiness of the Japanese military.

    It really wasn’t too unlike 9-11 in a lot of ways. Especially given the general tone of the “conspiracy theorists” (I put that in quotations because that is generally what they are referred to, but I think of them as people with enough balls to call a spade a spade. The “conspiracies” all make more sense to me than the media’s oft rehashed explanation.

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  53. “If we were face to face I’d guess that you were looking for a fight.”

    TOBY -- you have GOT to be kidding.

    And, what is with the mob mentality?

    0
  54. Name calling and violent feelings have never been a part of CHE, Clay.

    Different opinions make life interesting.

    0
  55. That’s the funny thing about trolls- they like to pick one line out of a paragraph and exploit it out of context.

    The stuff that followed your quote: “but that’s the strange thing about the internet- type belies so little emotional cues, and people become so much more outspoken than they are in actual face to face conversation.”

    Bruce-

    Seriously- do you ever stop to think that maybe the way you approach conversation could be easily misconstrued as a little adversarial? or even vindictive? I really have no ax to grind here- I don’t need enemies- I have a backlog.

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  56. Toby, as much as one can be on the internet, I thought we were friends.

    I haven’t posted much in a long time…I’ve been very busy. My posts themselves ARE out of context, I’ve missed a lot.

    How can a few comments turn friends into even POTENTIAL enemies…it boggles my mind!!

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  57. And a super funny thing (in light of one of those suggested questions you made to me up there) is that one of my big rubs with our society is the way the average joe hides behind social convention and throws stones, knowing that a verbal smackdown or a punch in the face is generally frowned upon in our culture today.

    Funny observation: In racing Hawaiian outrigger canoes I held a lot of administrative positions- I was a kids coach, the guy that takes care of the boats, the guy who takes care of the Halau (grounds, canoe shed, beach), and a board member. One of the common general rules in Hawaiian outrigger canoe racing is that whoever throws the first punch is immediately disbarred from the club. We live out in the wild west here (or in Kona anyhow) and with the clash of cultures comes some other clashes- one which is the Hawaiians, the Portagee Cowboys and the modern world- which all take time to mesh together.

    Anyhow- in paddling the new-transplant urban yuppies always relied on that rule about the first punch and used it to their advantage to oust someone they wanted out of their crew- they’d bait them and talk smack behind their backs until it was reduced to a big trainwreck and a disaster and then the shit would go down and they’d get their way by vote and board decision. Which is a big part of why I moved on to racing paddleboards.

    So at the end of my canoe experience I began taking karate and kickboxing with my then wife and daughter, and I found a home there and eventually began teaching Karate, Kickboxing and grappling pretty much full time.

    The one thing I found drastically different between paddling and kickboxing was that in Kickboxing everyone maintained a constant level of respect, because they knew that despite personalities and differences in politics, religion- whatever- you eventually always meet on the mats and spar.

    That’s what is missing from our society. Until every last one of us becomes mindful and humble and forgiving, there has to be some ax over our heads that keeps us in line. Otherwise we by our very nature take advantage and try to exploit the system. Or at least some of us.

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  58. Yeah -- great story and metaphor.

    I’ve been involved in competitive sailing and yoga all my life…I see a lot of parallels.

    I could be wrong but I think there are some of us that ARE in line by the very fact that we don’t really want anything. It kind of transcends mindfulness, humility, and forgiveness.

    I think you and Robin are the two smartest and most compelling people on any of my blogs. I just don’t get the vindictive perception. No one has ever made that assertion. I’m usually viewed as an old burned-out hippie type sailor.

    I have my opinions,for sure, but my family, friends, even my professors just laugh about them, and still love who I am.

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  59. See- and I just find you manipulative and sophomoric. Go figure. Maybe your peers are blowing smoke up your ass just to get rid of you? It’s a thought that bears some chewing on (by you.)

    Then again- maybe it’s me. I’m going to go meditate on that and when I’m done I’ll put your number 1 spark-plug in a red Folgers can full of (not night-crawlers) gas. Then we’ll all have a group hug and you can go back to being passive aggressive and milking attention from a dry tit and the rest of us will trade info on music history.

    Get your tongue out of my ass before I get Robin to punch you in the throat. I hear she has a wicked right cross.

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  60. Dude, how’d you know about my right cross? Did we spar at the OB kenpo dojo? ‘Course half of wicked is knowing to throw it out there only when necessary. If your opponent wants to wear himself out, then let him do the work for you. Let’s you keep your new jacket clean for when you belt out “Climbing Higher Mountains” and “Oh, Mary Don’t you Weep” while reaching out to touch the audience.

    Seems like disappointment in and cynicism about the government and other big decision-making institutions is usually provoked by the sense that the people making decisions, the processes for making them, lose sight of the individual lives they affect- lives that may even be lost as a result. Arguments to that effect are much more convincing when the person making them manages to express genuine compassion and concern.

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  61. >All that has been said here is that the loss of life was tragic

    I like the mob endorsement of compassion.

    Can’t resist saying how funny it is to return from a dinner party in which we thanked Lord Ganesh in prayer to questions about seeking a homogeneous little world

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  62. >>Arguments to that effect are much more convincing when the person making them manages to express genuine compassion and concern.

    compassion is very core when asking the tough questions and arguing the less-popular viewpoint.
    problem is people want simple answers and ones which don’t lead to further questions such as to what extent am i personally responsiible?
    we all want to believe we are the good guys and THOSE are the bad guys.
    life is so much easier that way….we go get gas, we get groceries, the kids and maybe a movie.

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  63. Remember the short-lived PSAs about gas-guzzlers supporting the terrorists? They were removed almost immediately by people who plugged their ears and yelled,”Nananana, I can’t hear you!” kept them off?

    You’re right, going anywhere meaningful with moral questions requires self-criticism and consideration of one’s responsibility for local and larger communities, for the government. Is it moral to pay taxes to a government waging a war you perceive as unjust? Does voting just encourage politicians to do more of what you don’t like? Or, is aloofness a cop-out? What does more to bring about the change you want- flying a flag off your car antenna, or riding your bike to work?

    The best part of what you’re saying is that it’s important to direct the hard questions to yourself before throwing out accusations.

    I’m hard-pressed to think of any angle that diminishes the heroism of people running into flames to pull others out.

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  64. the heroism of people running into flames to pull others out is almost unimaginable.

    The reference to the FDNY shirts was that it was part of a propaganda program used to incite hatred.

    I was also referring to the “support our troops” mentality that prevailed for (8?) years, as we destroyed a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 and let the actual perpetrators go free.

    When did people on CHE start swearing, name calling, and threatening or alluding to violence as a means of communication?

    The CHE mob mentality reminds me of Salem and how forgiveness is practiced least by those who preach it.

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  65. Matt- I’m sorry you were so directly pained by the tragedy. It was scary for me too. Thank you for sharing the music. At our best, that’s why people create.

    “[Forgetting is to avoid carrying around a lot of nasty stuff.]Forgiveness is a response to an apology.” -Judith Martin

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  66. watch zeitgeist to the end and imagine how and why those buildings came down so neatly in a pile. then imagine being the dudes looking up and into that mess beforehand>telling themselves we’re going in……not having any real idea (though some) as to what the odds actually were of ever coming out.

    THOSE were heroes.
    a big difference between them and those screaming for blood later…and exacting it.
    it’ simply amazing how many civil-emergency workers witnessed that scene which were censured later about what they saw.
    boggling actually.

    that’s when compassion turns to outrage…..and we have to ask ourselves to what end and towards what symbols (dogma) do we hold hands and unite as a people?
    for me it simply means when someone asks:
    clay do you really believe that?
    i have to say…honestly, yes.

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  67. thanks bruce though i do try to keep it simple.
    i can only hope my expressions aren’t too cumbersome for the more gymnastic in us.
    the aerial whoop-dee-doo and intellectual-somersault-and-twist are fine if they help get the point across…otherwise, for me at least, it becomes mere show…..where ego cancels substance.

    (we all wrestle with it at some point in our lives.
    the more gifted the wrestler, the more serious the struggle.)

    anyway…wtc7….weird how the president’s brother was in charge of security until a month before the tragedy.
    that was some hole there and a plane didn’t even come near that building.

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  68. as for lennon: my relationship with the beatles and their music was long and personal.
    they took what was basically an american art-form and made it british by introducing classical music, european folk songs, ethnic music and LSD (and animation) into the picture.
    no longer would rock-and-roll be a strictly blues-based-boogie-woogie-shoogie-and-sweaty affair and i thank them to no end for that.

    if ghandi rocked a guitar, bass, piano, or microphone
    he might be my favorite libra but that honor goes to john.
    needless to say it wasn’t just instruments he was rocking.

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  69. You are so right about the Beatles, (and British Invasion). They definitely elevated our Rock n Roll !!

    Don’t you think that the Beatles got WAY better after their long “visit” with Brian Wilson though??

    0
  70. i guess it depends on how much one loves strawberry fields forever~

    but yes everything was leading to that….even the bad-trip flute-excursion at the end.

    0
  71. I’ve been obsessed with Brian Wilson lately…don’t know why. I have the chance to see him in October.

    0
  72. but let me guess my friend….you still haven’t fully merged with
    SURF’S UP.
    oh but my bust…that wasn’t the beach BOYS.
    that was the beach MEN!!!

    nevertheless….do check.
    i have it on vinyl if you’d like it…..my own personal copy from the beginning of time.

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  73. be careful though…..brian suffered from the very same obsession.

    just as did hinckley.

    it’s rarely ever about the art or the artist but about the obsessing.

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  74. i can’t help but think at some point the myth and the hype and ALL THAT simply becomes a disease….though perhaps not fatal most certainly debilitating.

    do it….go there…get over it!

    and then come back to jesus.

    : )

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  75. Clay -- I have to tilt my head and stand on one foot to comprehend your posts! Most enjoyable.

    Perhaps obsess was a strong word…how about I really dig Brian Wilson lately.

    Not only the music but the early footage of the woodies, long boards, pipeline, ukuleles, dancing…surreal.

    Did Brian really never go to the beach, as rumored??

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  76. i’ve no idea but he didn’t hang out at the beach
    where i lived for
    20 years.

    nor did he look like he could surf but boy could he paddle a piano.

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  77. They were all kooks as far as surfing went. They were vals before the term came into existence. I think Mike Love later did surf. Jan and Dean were the real deal- surfing and hot rods and the wild parties and all that- I think unfettered by those confines, the Beach Boys perfected the music.

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  78. i think you can be ghandi and look for an argument but this has certainly gone beyond that.
    i thought there was something rather lord of the flies-ish about the system in which the island-crew could taunt and rib a guy until he threw the first blow….at which point he got removed from the group.
    so which one are we?

    anyhoo~this being a kitchen and all i think it’s okay to turn the heat down a bit…..
    i really hate eating charcoal.
    food is so much better.

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  79. >so which one are we?

    Who are you addressing as “we;” and who are you seeing as the evictee?

    I can see how Toby was goaded into tossing out a barb, but it was hardly by a mob; and he wasn’t removed from the group.

    And this isn’t an island we’re trapped on together. Look- there’s the off switch, in easy reach.

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  80. i was simply asking some questions dear.

    toby’s obviously bad-ass enuff without sweetcakes coming to clean up.
    this is between boys…..1982 remember?

    ahhhh…memories.

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  81. >i was simply asking some questions dear.

    Yet not answering any

    Ava- did you ever get out to Controversial Books when you were in San Diego? Has the inventory or set-up changed much? I do wish I’d been able to join you. Please tell me what I missed.

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  82. Toby- Thanks for the props on my right cross. I chose that as the board-breaking hand strike on my 1st degree black belt test. The board holder told me it was too risky and tried to convince me to go with a hammer strike or palm heel. I said this didn’t seem like an occasion for choosing the easy route. Snapped through clean and pretty. One of the judges said I’d gotten extra points not just for selecting the knuckles-first option, but also for my response to the target holder.

    These days, though, I’d have to say the left upper-cut, right knee combo is my most wicked.

    How ’bout you?

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  83. We didn’t do board breaking and stuff like that. We did have a demo team which I was part of and we did complicated modern forms and choreography. We were a very self-defense and match oriented school. I also never tested for my black belt test as I got divorced right as I was approaching it as well as lost my right ACL. Oddly enough, though- I was a big part of the sparring part for other people’s blackbelt tests for quite a few years. Sparring was my strong point, and grappling/ground fighting followed that. I really liked the ethics of locks and holds as opposed to beating someone until they were unconscious.

    My sensei called me a year or so back and asked me if he’d ever given me my belt and I said no- that my divorce had gotten in the way. He laughed and said that I shopuld have gotten it as I trained a lot longer and harder than a lot of people who had gotten theirs (I was training and teaching six nights a week, pretty much from 3:30 in the afternoon to 7:30 eves on weekdays.) But it’s just not the same as actually participating in the black belt training (which was actually about what my regular training schedule was, except the sensei pushes you a lot harder to push yourself a lot harder) and the test is two days of gruelling curriculum and a last day of an odd task like climbing a mountain to find an envelope with instructions in it and following the instructions, which would be like “get to such and such a place by 4 p.m. without paying anyone.” the place being lkike 15 or 20 miles away, and the high road would be to not hitchhike, but eventually pretty much everyone would. I could have run it and been a hero. 😉

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  84. Oo- ACL, that’s rough. How’d it heal?

    I like the locks and holds approach, too. I got to study hapkido briefly with the guy who taught Bruce Lee. He was a gifted teacher. Though, I decided to study tae kwon do for the emphasis on legs. In an actual self-defense situation, kicks would be my best bet. The high point of my sparring training remains the day I actually surprised the Master with a clean round kick to his temple (head gear on, of course).

    Hm. I could see hitchhiking as a high road. Trusting a stranger. Trusting yourself to take care of it if the stranger betrays you. At least as relevant to the test as a long hard run.

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  85. On the Big Island hitchhiking is considered public transit. Pretty safe place.

    Trying to think who taugh Bruce Lee besides Yip (ip) Man. I know he trained with Inosanto and Joe Louis, Joon Rhee worked with him- can’t recall who else. Who did you train with?

    Our school was Tae Kwon Do based- though stressing a good boxing stance with the weight forward. From there we could segue into grappling or shift our center of balance slightly and pivot a knee to kick- it was a very versatile mix of styles. We also did some forms, worked with kali and escrima, did some staff and nunchaku stuff (black belt classes and demo team only), and incorporated a lot of brazillian jiu jitsu into the curriculum. The classes were pretty eclectic, but sparring was a core part of the curriculum, the other stuff separate. I trained with John Kyle (an ex streetfighter, longtime martial artist, all around super nice guy and now 6th degree black belt under Chuck Biddle.) I’ve also trained with Chris Natzke (sic?), one time olympic Tae Kwon do guy and another super nice guy, Tom Kallos (way back Inosanto school), Relson Gracie, Andre Derizens (Gracie school), and a couple times with BJ Penn’s brother (off hand can’t recall his name.) Oh yeah- and way back I used to spar now and then with Leland son of Dog TBH. Leland is really compact and really fast with his hands. And a nice guy.

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  86. Oh yeah- to answer your question- the ACL didn’t heal. It’s gone. My Medial Meniscus on the other side tends to overcompensate, has torn a little. But as long as I run in a straight line and don’t land any spinning jump kicks I’m pretty good. No soccer, no basketball- but distance running is cool, and body surfing with one fin (I can dislocate my knee swimming with a fin on my right leg.)

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  87. I’ll have to look up the hapkido guy’s name. He was a friend of our school’s master who came out to do some intensive workshops. The guy I studied with longest was Myung-Po Kim. He was an old school grandmaster out of Seoul who kept healing arts and cultural history in the core black belt curriculum.

    Ouch- sorry about your ACL!

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  88. >Trying to think who taught Bruce Lee besides Yip (ip) Man.

    Ji Han Jae. The villain in “Game of Death.” I’ve never worked with anyone better at breaking down each little move. Incredibly calm and patient too. Beautiful to watch.

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  89. robin….perhaps my posts are as complicated as bruce suggested.
    : )
    i was referring to toby’s description of the system a certain canoe or kayak crew utilized in dealing with conflict within
    the ranks. basically that members of the crew were allowed to goad taunt rib or jab a guy until he threw the first punch…at which point the
    member would be ejected. this is what i described as lord of the flies-ish….as to the savage nature in which a system might be employed.
    i simply queried in what sense any of us here might resemble one versus the other?
    it was a simple request for reflection.

    i’ve been ejected from more than one group/list before…including even one i established myself.
    a couple of those ejections were fairly memorable….btw.
    i was in fact ejected from a tiny local 2 nights ago for simply rsvping that i could not do a 2-hour meeting at a starbucks….until maybe
    starbucks got out of iraq.
    no warning…nothing. simply removed from the group.
    i have no control over what goes on here nor do i truly desire any.
    i can contribute what moves me…..offer what i may.

    to be sure, there was no threat of anything…not even a denouncement per se……except that we ponder our moment and proceed in a less-heated manner if possible.

    btw…it has been noted that it helps to hop on one’s foot and hold your head sideways if you really want to get the meaning of my posts.
    i haven’t seen it done myself but it might be worth a try?
    i’m curious.

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  90. >it was a simple request for reflection

    I think Toby the Razor Sharp Lifehater’s perception was spot on.

    Way, way back in the day, I remember a distant and very loose association with Toby- knew of him mostly what I heard through others. (And for years did not know the chainsaw juggling story was dead-pan humor.) Mostly, his reputation was the big fearless guy who would step in for little guys when he thought it was necessary. I think he’s still that guy. I think years of being an adult and disciplined training and developing formidable verbal skills have tempered how he expresses himself. But he’s still that guy. Who stepped in for enough of us or our friends when we felt small and scared that if someone presses and presses until they provoke Toby into a little ether slap, we’ll understand and still be happy he’s on the island.

    I definitely agree with you about food vs. charcoal. That one I got with no hopping or head turning. At least- if the heat is turned up, let it be interesting, unpredictable, maybe even have some kind of point. Derivative knee-jerk contrarianism is a yawn.

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  91. Robin said: “Ji Han Jae. The villain in “Game of Death.” I’ve never worked with anyone better at breaking down each little move. Incredibly calm and patient too. Beautiful to watch.”

    Neat stuff. The Gracies are also really, really good at breaking stuff down and teaching it that way. I learned a lot any time I trained with them- there were just all these moments of realization about WHY I was doing some of the stuff I’d been trained to do. They also run through stuff slow a LOT of the time, a practice I have always been impressed with in building muscle memory.

    And to keep this on topic, I sang My Sweet Love super loud whenever I tapped out.

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  92. well toby once informed me of a very different person than the one suggested here……but that’s between he and i (as this one got quite personal for the both of us).
    history is often a reckless synthesis of misinformation….as you must well know.
    i’m okay with who we are now and quite okay with an occasional
    rescue-by-cavalry….though unsure how unpredictable or interesting it really was.

    anyway~ call me what you want in public or private…..please don’t hurt yourself doing it.

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  93. Clay -- I’ve looked everywhere but I can’t find that great quote about the other side of the shithouse??

    You said you had a key…and I’m still wondering what that means. head tilted, etc…

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  94. am i wrong to want to see burt bacharach this weekend?
    not only do i love his sweet music but he was one of the OLD guys who actually stood UP AGAINST george bush those horrible, dark years.

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  95. requires much more actually….like an ability to process things and throw them back out in a way that makes sense to others occasionally.

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  96. Burt Bacharach is a god of the American Songbook. He wrote so many great tunes.

    He LOVED the Carpenters.

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  97. >>i’ve been ejected from more than one group/list before…including even one i established myself.

    LOL! Am I disappointing folks somehow by not kicking somebody off the blog? I feel like I should just pick the most pleasant, agreeable, innocent member I could possibly find and 86 them, just to end the suspense. 🙂

    With this blood sacrifice, the specter of banishment will lift for another year, and we’ll have a good harvest.

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  98. >well toby once informed me of a very different person than the one suggested here

    No one ever accused him of being a simple man. Or a saint. I claim only distant memories I doubt are shared. And gratitude that a loudmouthed little skinhead named Keith did not get the serious beat down.

    >And to keep this on topic, I sang My Sweet Love super loud whenever I tapped out.

    Gap Band “You Dropped a Bomb on Me”

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  99. >feel like I should just pick the most pleasant, agreeable, innocent member I could possibly find and 86 them, just to end the suspense.

    Ah- that explains it! If you evict yourself, Sweet Brother Matthew, Che disappears. Shall we carry on singing and dancing for the Corn Maidens then?

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  100. Matt said: “LOL! Am I disappointing folks somehow by not kicking somebody off the blog? I feel like I should just pick the most pleasant, agreeable, innocent member I could possibly find and 86 them, just to end the suspense.”

    So Ray is outa here?

    I have been banned from the Surfer Magazine board probably fifty times, mostly for pointing out what a sold out, corporate rag that magazine and the surf industry is. Well- and doing it with IP masking software, lots and lots of photoshop and many creative false personas/accounts/screen names.

    Bruce- Clayton- Matt- Robin- Burt- Karen- big group hug, here we go, there we go, all better.

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  101. >>So Ray is outa here?

    Yeah! That’ll teach him for writing all those nice, interesting posts and doing months of research on cool bands. Damn smarty-pants!! 🙂

    Does anybody WANT to be kicked off? I mean, I sure don’t want to undermine anyone’s outlaw cred.

    Hey! Maybe we can all eject each other! Who needs us anyway, huh? I think we can simultaneously teach ourselves a lesson by kicking ourselves out AND prove we’re not the boss of us by going off and starting our own damn blog … Maybe … Like … Back HERE!!

    Wow. I’m glad we don’t have to take that kind of shit any more, huh? Let’s just see us try to ostracize ourselves NOW. 😛

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  102. >>Maybe we can all eject each other! Who needs us anyway…..

    quite funny>
    but i’m with toby on the hug.

    any day above ground is a good one….or how ’bout this one?

    we all live in a yellow submarine….in a yellow….sub..ma…rine….
    in..a…yel…low….s u .. b……m..aa…r ….i..n…e….

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  103. I would like to be kicked off in theory. But you all would have to hypothetically post about how much you miss my aggressive, misanthropic meanderings and then you will all have to write about how you’ll go looking for me(with me voyeuristically looking on, your hypothetical selves feeding my ether-ego), and while you’re gone (in type) I’ll steal all your shoes off the front porch and eat that whole bag of Reeces Peanut Butter cups you have stashed behind the Vegan Hot dogs in the ethernet freezer of delights. and then I’d leave a suicide note and fly to the Bahamas for six weeks.

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  104. >I’ll steal all your shoes off the front porch and eat that whole bag of Reeces Peanut Butter cups you have stashed behind the Vegan Hot dogs in the ethernet freezer of delights.

    Dude, if you touch the taffy in my t-shirt drawer, it’s gonna be something. You’ll be getting your own Ji Han Jae lesson.

    (‘m I ejected yet?)

    Oh, hey- great blog here, Matt. MUCH better than the Che Underground I just got kicked off of. They’re not the boss of me!

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  105. oh but matt….seriously it’s more fun if you have OTHERS throw you out FOR you.

    there’s a trick to it though.

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  106. >>oh but matt….seriously it’s more fun if you have OTHERS throw you out FOR you.

    MCC: Do I have to wear anything special? Should I bring a gift for the host?

    This is VERY exciting!! 🙂

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  107. >Do I have to wear anything special?

    How ’bout you all wear Catholic schoolgirl uniforms and I put on a pirate costume?

    Rothenberg- I’ve had enough of your crap! You’re too DANGEROUS and THREATENING. Get the hell out!

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  108. I suggest a CHE celebration of FESTIVUS.

    I would be very excited about the “airing of grievances”, and perhaps Toby and Robin could perform the “feats of strength”.

    I don’t know who would bring the pole.

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  109. Pee-wee: There’s a lotta things about me you don’t know anything about, Dottie. Things you wouldn’t understand. Things you couldn’t understand. Things you shouldn’t understand.

    Dottie: I don’t understand.

    Pee-wee: You don’t wanna get mixed up with a guy like me. I’m a loner, Dottie. A rebel. … So long, Dott.

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  110. I was surprised by this interview. Not a fan of Julian Lennon’s music I’ve heard, not a follower of people’s confessionals, initially repelled by the beachfront setting (and still a little sketchy about the two topless dudes interviewing him) … But his account of a distant, narcissistic artist father is well-considered and intriguing to me:

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  111. And that’s 30 years under the bridge. Hmmmm.

    It’s funny: I was more affected by Lennon’s death than by Darby Crash’s, but the fact that 30 years had passed yesterday since the latter was somehow more disconcerting.

    I think it’s got something to do with the fact that when I was 15 and he was 40, John Lennon seemed like kind of an old guy. He’ll always be older than me in my mind, even though I’m older than he ever got to be.

    Darby was a few years older’n me, but it’s harder for me to picture him at 51 than Lennon at 70.

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  112. The Beatles have never been a direct influence on me musically. I don’t enjoy listening to their music much these days since I’ve heard most of the catalog enough times over to permanently engrave it in to my DNA. On those occasions when I’m inclined to listen to oldies the Beatles are nowhere near the top of the list for me. I think Kraftwerk, Black Sabbath, Chuck Berry, King Tubby, Kool Herc, Hank Williams, Willie Nelson, Chet Atkins or heck even The Beach Boys have each had greater impact on the way popular music sounds nowadays. I will admit that lazy songwriters never seem to tire of ripping off chord progressions from Beatles tunes. I think it’s also safe to say that the Beatles also found source material in the popular music of their own youth.

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  113. >>I don’t enjoy listening to their music much these days since I’ve heard most of the catalog enough times over to permanently engrave it in to my DNA.

    Paul: See, that’s an interesting thing for me … I’ve mentioned it before: The Beatles personally have a special place for me because I know their songs better than any others — because they are engraved in my DNA, listening to them is less cerebral in a lot of ways than any other band.

    That being said, of course they’re one set of musicians among many. (And were always extremely up front about their influences.) Much of the innovation around the Beatles was actually far outside their music and had more to do with the packaging of a band (for better or worse). They also proved to be the avatars for how creative tensions can blow apart a group (a cycle that’s repeated many times over).

    And all that being said, I still think they wrote and recorded an amazing quantity of really great music in a very short time.

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  114. Just to push this a little harder: I think the Beatles had a more profound influence on more kids about what it means to be in a band — good, bad and ugly — than all those other muscians.

    That does separate the sociological from the aesthetic. And I stil think they kick ass in the second category, too. (As far as whether they kick more or less ass than specific other musicians: I’ve never been much of a list-maker of ranked preferences … Stuff’s too different, so trying to line it up that way is not a satisfying exercise for me. “I’m not sure whether Coltrane or Rocket from the Tombs is my #5 favorite.”) 🙂

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  115. You’re not going to be an old curmudgeon are you, Matt? You’re going to be a jolly grand-dad in your old age. The nurses in the home will pat your head fondly and sneak you extra candies. They’ll complain after work, then say, “Except Mr. Rothenberg, he’s a nice old guy.”

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  116. My kid the musical-theater geek can rattle off, in strict order, her Top 10 Broadway musicals. It’s a major event in our house if something moves from #4 to #3!

    Me? I can give you a short list of bands that shaped me most profoundly … I can’t really put them in order, and I wouldn’t ascribe objective musical qualities to explain why they were the most influential to me.

    My explanations would have much more to do with the circumstances under which I heard them: my age, my psychological state, my group of friends … It’s a different rubric from the one Paul H. uses. (Not to say it’s better or worse.)

    Anyway, I’m writing a lot — but it’s a subject I do find interesting: how people even arrive at these sorts of judgments.

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  117. I recently re-watched some movies I loved in my 20s. I can’t even bring myself to name them here. When I saw them recently, they were awful. Horrible. I was taken aback. I remember being that age, the experiences and perspective I had. I’m aware of having grown and changed, but definitely have felt unchanged in some basic ways. Then I watched that drivel and felt like old me was a complete stranger. I couldn’t fathom what it was that had made those movies seem so great at the time. So, yeah, ranking can be fluid.

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  118. There’s really very, very little I enjoyed earlier in my life and disavow now.

    A couple of winces about ’70s kitsch I found cool at ages 11 or 12 (white bell-bottoms, mime classes, Doug Henning) … But mostly in a fond way, really. I’m happy to share a laugh about them!

    Otherwise, my aesthetic development has been more a gradual process of aggregation than a cycle of renunciation and reinvention.

    F’rinstance, I can’t take points off something because it’s been overexposed. (My spouse is totally different; like Paul, she maxxes out after repeat listenings. I don’t seem to be wired like that.)

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  119. I max out for overexposure but can still praise overexposed items.

    My spouse is an audiophile. Those people are immune to overexposure.

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  120. Oh! Point of clarification: When I said the Beatles were IMO the most influential in inspiring “kids” to start bands, I wasn’t weighing on whether young people currently consider the Beatles a touchstone. (I don’t think most do.)

    I meant specifically that people who were tiny kids to young adults when the Beatles hit — from the Byrds to the Stooges to Bowie to the Ramones (named after Paul McCartney’s early stage name) to the Fugs to Joe Strummer to Penny Rimbaud to Chuck D to Lemmy to Ozzie to … You get the idea … Have lined up to say their idea of what a band was was shaped in significant ways by the Beatles. A lot of them have said they decided to play because of the Beatles.

    And those musicians in turn have inspired legions of others (many of whom don’t give two craps about the Beatles). 🙂

    Now, again, this is all sociology and music history, not music criticism! I like their music a lot, but I don’t have a stake one way or another in anyone else sharing that opinion.

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  121. The Fugs ? Chuck D ?

    Really ?

    It’s not really repeated listenings that “maxes me out” in every case. I’m sure I’ve listened to “Paranoid” and “Masters of Reality” many more times than any Beatles album and I’ll still sit down and listen to those any time.

    As far as people starting to play music because of hearing a certain artist or band and then more people starting to play because of hearing THOSE folks, I’m sure Elvis has it all over the Beatles (I’m not an Elvis fan either). Anyway, wouldn’t it be a logical fallacy to think that failing to be inspired by The Beatles, they wouldn’t have been inspired in some other way ?

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  122. Probably Chuck Berry, Elvis, Bo Diddley, Jerry Lee Lewis…were more influential than the Beatles…and I love the Beatles. There were so many good invasion bands during the Beatles reign that future musicians could have copped a similar influential experience from any of them.

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  123. >>The Fugs ? Chuck D ?

    Paul: Yeah, Google it up. A bunch of people you maybe wouldn’t expect have said the Beatles were a catalyst for them to think they could pick up instruments, write their own stuff and play. A lot of the artsy fringe — like the Fugs — got turned on to the idea that they could create their own stuff that way.

    Lennon certainly said the Beatles happened largely ’cause of Elvis, so sure … We can say Elvis was the catalyst, but I haven’t read as many musicians say that Elvis directly inspired them to DIY.

    Perhaps, as you speculate, those musicians might have been inspired another way. But in this particular time-space continuum, those guys have said the Beatles’ emergence was a catalyst for them to form bands.

    Does that mean you’re required to like ’em? No way! Listen to what you want. Do you need to credit them as visionary game-changers? Not at all; actually, I don’t think they were. I think they were in the right place, at the right age and with the right packaging to tip some kind of balance. (You could plausibly argue Brian Epstein was the game-changer, not the band.)

    Did the Beatles influence the creative efforts of a whole lot of youngsters? I’d argue strongly that they did.

    (Oh, and I still think they were a great band.) 🙂

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  124. “Right. That was big. That was very important. We wanted to also put together a concept album in the same realm as the classic albums. The Beatles, Earth Wind & Fire’s ’Gratitude’. We wanted to put together something that signified a live album, but also some great studio work. We had knowledge of ’James Brown Live At The Apollo’, we had knowledge of ’Seargent Pepper’ and ’Revolver’ by The Beatles, we were record collectors. So we wanted to make a ’What’s Going On’ of rap.” — Chuck D

    ————--

    “PSF: How did you start out with Ed and the Fugs?

    We were both poets on the lowest East Side. We met at a place called the Metro. They sold furniture and since they had the tables and chairs there already, so they decided to open a coffee shop. Once the coffee house was established, it became the center of poetry readings. This was in the early ’60s. After the poetry, we would go to a place called the Dom on St. Marks. We would go there and try to dance, listening to the Beatles and the Stones. The early Beatles were not great poets but they did become great poets later. We decided that we could do something like that. So we decided to enter the field and we were sort of an instant hit. We had a wide range- Ed was a wild, crazy, mid-Western young man and I was a New York radical Jew. So together he had everything or, as some people would say, nothing.” — Tuli Kupferberg

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  125. “We wanted to do something entirely different from [previous album] ‘It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back,’ — that was our fastball,” says PE leader Chuck D. “We wanted to make ‘Fear of a Black Planet’ as much of a curveball as possible, lyrically, musically, conceptually. We wanted it to be our ‘Sgt. Pepper’s.’”

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  126. “I was in graduate school. I was supposed to be a professor. Then I needed to earn some money because my daughter was born, so I opened this bookstore. Peace Eye Bookstore on East 10th Street in New York City. And next door was this guy who was this very famous beatnik named Tuli Kupferberg, and I had met him, and it was right after the Beatles did ‘I Want to Hold Your Hand,’ and Roy Orbison’s ‘Oh Pretty Woman,’ and the Shangri-Las’ ‘The Leader of the Pack,’ and (Wilson Pickett’s) ‘Mustang Sally,’ so there was some interesting music. Plus, all the Civil Rights tunes. And then there was this thing called ‘the happening movement,’ where you’d get an art gallery and you’d get all the people to take off their clothes, and you get balloons, and you paint people. You could get in the art game. So we said, ‘Why don’t we just form a band? We’ll have a good time. We’re poets; we’ll write some songs.’ And I knew there was this band called the Holy Modal Rounders, and I told them and they agreed to provide the music.” — Ed Sanders

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  127. Chuck D has said “The Long and Winding Road” is his favorite Beatles song. (Go figure!) He salutes the song here (and quotes at least a dozen Bob Dylan songs, in case we’re wondering whether he respects Dylan, too):

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  128. Matt, I don’t have time to respond to all 5 of your responses just now (maybe later), but a couple of things about recent discussion here do spring to mind.

    First, It’s interesting and refreshing to find myself on the same side of an argument with Bruce.

    Second, are you seriously proposing the idea that Elvis Presley didn’t inspire vast numbers of young men (and perhaps a few gals) to take up the guitar and the mic ? Many of whom would later inspire others to do the same.

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  129. >>Second, are you seriously proposing the idea that Elvis Presley didn’t inspire vast numbers of young men (and perhaps a few gals) to take up the guitar and the mic ? Many of whom would later inspire others to do the same.

    Paul: Not at all! Elvis was a huge influence. I haven’t read as many bios where musicians cite him as their primary influence, but the Beatles certainly were among them. (Fifty million Elvis fans can’t be wrong! Perhaps I should read up more.)

    I’m a little unclear about what you’re trying to convince me: that I don’t like the Beatles, or that lots of other people didn’t like and weren’t influenced by the Beatles (including Chuck D and the Fugs)? Those are the only two assertions I’ve made here.

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  130. I think I’m more burned out on arguments about the extent of Beatles influence than I am on overplayed or overrated Beatles songs. I’d rather hear “Rocky Raccoon” ten times in a row than overhear one more heated discussion about how the Beatles compare to anyone on anything.

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  131. >>I think I’m more burned out on arguments about the extent of Beatles influence than I am on overplayed or overrated Beatles songs.

    Robin: Wow, well said!! I’m totally on board with that.

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  132. >I meant specifically that people who were tiny kids to young adults when the Beatles hit — from the Byrds to the Stooges to Bowie to the Ramones (named after Paul McCartney’s early stage name) to the Fugs to Joe Strummer to Penny Rimbaud to Chuck D to Lemmy to Ozzie to … You get the idea … Have lined up to say their idea of what a band was was shaped in significant ways by the Beatles.

    Chuck D never seems to say he got inspired to be in a band because of them or got his ideas of what it means to be in a band from them he says he wanted to make “It Takes A Nation Off Millions To Hold Us Back” be his bands “Sgt.. Peppers”. (I wish there was an editors note that said “A very influential Beatles album which was inspired by the Beach Boys album “Pet Sounds” every time someone said that, so everyone would know) Chuck D also lists 4 other classic albums in the same sentence (3 of which are not by the band in question)..

    The guy from the Fugs cited the Beatles and The Stones in the quote you provided. and also stated “The early Beatles were not great poets but they did become great poets later.”

    If bands are getting their idea of what it means to be a band from the Beatles, why do so many bands keep touring after the first few albums.

    I saw an interview with Ozzy Osbourne, when asked what inspired him to start singing and join a band Ozzie Osbourne stated without hesitaion and with a tone that implied that the interviewer might be slightly slow, “Elvis”. I”m pretty sure his experience was pretty common to musicians born around the time the second world war ended.

    >I’m a little unclear about what you’re trying to convince me: that I don’t like the Beatles, or that lots of other people didn’t like and weren’t influenced by the Beatles (including Chuck D and the Fugs)? Those are the only two assertions I’ve made here.

    Obviously I don’t think you don’t like the Beatles. Clearly you love the Beatles. I do think you love them so much that you exaggerate their importance a little.

    >How about if we change gears, though, and talk a little more about what Lennon and the Beatles meant to us? For me, they were the original touchstone for what being in a rock-’n’-roll band was supposed to be. How about you?

    was the question, I’m just trying to give my answer…

    Am I out of bounds to talk about their influence on culture relative to other artists ? Jeez, sorry.

    Robin, as a personal favor, if you do decide to listen to “Rocky Racoon” 10 consecutive times, please use headphones or double check to make sure I’m out of earshot. Thanks.

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  133. Rocky Raccoon is a god-awful song by any standards…and I love the Beatles 🙂

    I don’t think you can talk enough about musical influences…music is almost always influenced by, for, or against, something, and that’s half the fun!

    The whole of rock and roll, and the British Invasion, was completely influenced by Chuck Berry, Fats Domino, Little Richard etc…wicki says that rock n roll started when “race music” was fused with “hillbilly music”…perfect explanation! When Elvis, Jerry lee Lewis, and Buddy Holly heard Chuck and Fats, rock as we know it began. Remember too, that the Beatles played Black American covers almost exclusively for their first gigs.

    The Beatles are probably cited by many as influential, but more as a sensation than musical pioneers…(except after Pet Sounds)!!!

    Fear of A Black Planet may seem to have a large impact, but consider that this album was outsold by Ace Of Base by 20 million?? copies…perspective.

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  134. Of course. In the unlikely event, I promise to give you fair warning. You should be safe until at least Dec. 26. I’m all about old Christmas carols right now- “Patapan,” “Boar’s Head,” “Here we come a-wassailing”…I’ll be a-wassailing for awhile.

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  135. >>Am I out of bounds to talk about their influence on culture relative to other artists ? Jeez, sorry.

    Paul: No, but I think this thread demonstrates it’s probably fruitless at the end of the day, at least as a casual endeavor. 🙂

    You and I could probably collaborate on a pretty interesting doctoral dissertation on what comprises “musical influence” … We’d have to dig through hundreds of thousands of popular-music catalogs and millions of interviews and find some way to quantify all that primary musical and historical source material into some sort of “influence algorithm.” (We’d probably also end up not speaking for 40 years after winning our Nobel, like Watson and Crick!)

    But even if we could somehow gather all the sources, they contradict themselves: Here, Ozzy says, “The Beatles were the only band in rock’n’roll history to go from a f**king boy band to a psychedelic rock band, and it was all accepted because Lennon and McCartney wrote such great melodies. … Listen to Sgt Pepper -- there’s a track on that album for everyone. They were the f**king catalyst for me to get into music.”

    So, did Elvis or the Beatles inspire Ozzy? Probably both.

    Is it a discussion we’re going to settle? No!

    Do the Beatles inspire a ton of really unproductive arguments about whether they were a big deal or not? Yeah, probably more than any other band — we could go back and forth on this forever.

    So I’m going to vote that Gerry and the Pacemakers were the real influencers and back out of this gracefully. 🙂

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  136. PS again: I was being a smart-ass, but it actually is interesting to consider how you can possibly measure “influence” beyond your own personal experience. I don’t know that it can be done. Honestly, we really can only speak to whether we personally felt influenced by anybody else’s work. Beyond that, it’s just extrapolation, anecdote and hearsay, really.

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  137. I think Musicologists and Art Historians do exactly that…all the time…measure influence beyond their own personal experience. I for one, have to be able to consider and debate issues like this all the time in my Music Ed Grad classes, and will have to do more of it on the Doctoral Level.

    And not to diminish Ozzy, but it’s nearly impossible to list all the bands that started out squeaky clean in the late 50’s, early 60’s and then went through, and mirrored, the psychedelic late 60’s, early 70’s. The Beatles certainly didn’t have a monopoly on that.

    I don’t think anyone is making the argument that Ozzy is a music historian though.

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  138. I hope you’ll all enjoy my forthcoming monograph, “How Do You Do What You Do to Western Culture? Gerry and the Pacemakers as 20th Century Avatars of Social and Aesthetic Revolution.”

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  139. Exception: I’ll break from carols during the P-Man show. Unless the P-Man does a Christmas show, enabling me to wassail during that time as well.

    Matt, please. Every thinking person knows it was the Pacemakers’ producer, not the band members, who made them “great.” If we are willing to let mass marketability in a unique and short-lived political and economic context pass for greatness. (Oo! Are those salmon canapes?! I simply must indulge.) Personally, I feel we should all be ashamed for ignoring the true greats: Hanna and Barbera, who first truly demonstrated rock’s potential as an art form. (Oh, dear God, our host is lighting up a hookah. I need to move.The secondhand smoke will give me crow’s feet…Sting! Sting’s here. How’s my hair? Where’s my brush?)

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  140. Bruce, “Fear of a Black Planet” ain’t really the one though. “It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back”, that’s Public Enemy’s “What’s Going On”.

    Robin, the 21st is gonna be the Christmas Show. Not much Christmas music though, Just gonna be me and special guests EshOne and Hm.t Dm.t drinking fat tire cans and playing records, warm up session for Dead Technology 4.

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  141. OK, OK … A friend just (gently) chided me for giving up too easily on the possibility of measuring influence. I don’t think we’ve got the tools here on this thread to do anything but cherry-pick musician quotes and cite album sales, but Bruce is right: There are meaningful ways to evaluate the way one thing influenced another.

    Fundamental question: What do you mean by “influence”? Sociological or aesthetic or both? Does the person influenced need to acknowledge or realize or even know the “original” source material the music comes from? E.g., the “Bo Diddley beat” can be found in Yoruba music — was Bow Wow Wow influenced by Yoruba culture, and was Bo Diddley really just fronting a glorified Yoruba cover band with a little U.S. marketing veneer?

    I can come up with a ton of other questions we’d have to answer first before we could come up with any meaningful, quantifiable statement about any band’s or musician’s influence. So could you, and I doubt our questions would match in the first place. So it’s kind of a nonstarter!

    I vote Gerry and the Pacemakers. And wassailing. (I’m going to wassail and ululate simultaneously!)

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  142. >>I’m going to wassail and ululate simultaneously!

    That is some talent!

    I see your point, Matt. It’s hard enough to test causal models of social variables when someone is actually trying to influence a specific target using a clear plan. And our own impressions of how we’re influenced are incomplete.

    But, then, Gerry and the Pacemakers were so colossal, so original, so universal in their influence…Yes, I think we can have consensus there.

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  143. “There are meaningful ways to evaluate the way one thing influenced another”…yeah, purely academic. 🙂

    Thank God that we study the arts for reasons such as this though.

    In a time where we are trying to test our way to success, dialogues like this require higher level thinking, no definitive answer, and are very (unmeasurably) rewarding.

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  144. >not to diminish Ozzy, but it’s nearly impossible to list all the bands that started out squeaky clean in the late 50′s, early 60′s and then went through, and mirrored, the psychedelic late 60′s, early 70′s

    Correct. Case in point, Spinal Tap was not a Beatles parody. (It wasn’t a G.A.T.P. parody either).

    >The whole of rock and roll, and the British Invasion, was completely influenced by Chuck Berry, Fats Domino, Little Richard etc…wicki says that rock n roll started when “race music” was fused with “hillbilly music”…perfect explanation! When Elvis, Jerry lee Lewis, and Buddy Holly heard Chuck and Fats, rock as we know it began.

    Hmm, not so fast. Correct on the first point, but maybe not completely so on the point of who did the fusing. Chuck Berry was a fan off “Hillbilly” music and fused it’s influences in to his own musical stew. Case in point, “Maybellene” (which I believe pre-dates the British invasion). In the interest of full disclosure I should tell you all that I think Chuck Berry is the real King of Rock and Roll and as such I’m not unbiased.

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  145. Well….full agreement here, but, if Chuck Berry is King of Rock N Roll
    where do you place Little Richard?? Jerry Lee Lewis?? (part of hillbilly infusion), and Fats?? he was even before the other cats!!

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  146. I did preface the above with “here goes nothing” …

    So, here goes more nothing. If you’re gonna divide music up in to genre’s, there’ll have to be starting points and ending points. Chuck Berry’s music is as good a starting point as any for “Rock and Roll”. Guitar became the dominant instrument in “Rock and Roll” after he took the existing piano riffs of the time and played them on guitar. It stayed the dominant instrument all the way through “Rock” and beyond. In my view the piano players you mentioned were not the beginning of “Rock and Roll” but the logical conclusion of “Boogie Woogie”. Berry was the gap bridger. I’d class Danny and The Juniors “At The Hop” as “Doo Wop” (a vocal accompanied style ) rather than “Rock and Roll” (more heresy, I don’t consider “Doo Wop” to be “Rock and Roll”).

    But I’m no scholar, your starting points and definitions are as good as mine. Who do you reckon is the “King of Rock and Roll” , Little Richard maybe ?

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  147. I am of the opinion that one cannot, SHOULD not, have room in their hearts for a genuine love of The Beatless and THe Rolling Stones; Therefore, the choice is clear: Screw those overrated mop-tops! [Have you alreadly covered the whole Stones/Beatles Conundrum? If so, apologies.] Yeah, Lennon was okay, but the rest of ’em make me want to hurl. For better or (mostly) worse, I’ve always been Kieth’s girl…
    As for 9/11, when the news came on about the World Trade Center being attacked, I thought it was a re-run (remember the car bomb in the basement, a few years earlier?), so I snapped off the set, rolled over and went back to sleep. I wish they’d have bombed it at night, without actual human beings inside of it, because, along with The Pentagon (which is a much bigger deal to have had attacked), it’s a symbol of human evil…

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  148. Little Richard SAYS he started Rock and Roll 🙂

    Guitar King…definitely Chuck Berry.

    I’m wondering if Doo-Wop is a form of rock and roll? I’m wondering if Beasty Boys are rock and Roll…when does it begin and end.

    On my FB page we had a long and spirited dialogue about the “Last” rock star…I said Sid Vicious..haha…lots of controversy here!

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  149. Little Richard is the Queen of Rock and Roll, obviously..

    Beatles vs. Stones is still a false dichotomy to me.

    Sabbath.

    Well, the Ozzy albums…
    that Bill Ward Doesn’t sing lead on

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  150. >>Guitar became the dominant instrument in “Rock and Roll” after he took the existing piano riffs of the time and played them on guitar. It stayed the dominant instrument all the way through “Rock” and beyond. Berry was the gap bridger.

    I don’t think that’s right… The British invasion bands weren’t so much the beginning of “rock” as they were the end of the previous era. Rock music in the ’60s evolved more out of the folk and blues revival in the early ’60s, which people thought were more serious, sophisticated, and relevant forms of music. People were tired of lightweight pop songs (not that there’s anything wrong with that), so they were looking to the past for inspiration. Rock music had that same kind of “serious” tone to it… that was what made it different from what came before. The Beatles were influenced by that… they didn’t start it. Finally people got sick of that trend and wanted to have fun again, so you had the Ramones.

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  151. Personally, I believe genres “start” when they’re marketed as something new. T-Bone Walker did first most of what Chuck Berry did later. (Chuck Berry is awesomeness personified, btw, and had both a great sound and some fine marketing gimmicks — both essential to breakthrough success.)

    The one exception is Gerry and the Pacemakers, who did indeed spring fully formed from the waters of the Mersey.

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  152. 4th Annual: Blink182 -- 7pm, free

    Wednesday, December 22nd
    Project: Donate Benefit Concert
    Anyone cuming to the che shows?
    Live Performances: Flow Dimaggio, Okay!Okay!, The Rêves, Lonesome Sparrow, Holytigress, Hector Malvido
    -- Admission is ONE or MORE new or used toy, game or stuffed animal -- 8pm

    Thursday, December 23rd
    Live Bands: Snuffaluffagus, WITT, Miniature Tree, Bro Zen, Dirty Gold -- $7, 7:30pm

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  153. well lesha…good to see you bothering these fine gents!
    but since you are the queen-stickler for spelling…..
    and because you are “his girl”….ahemm..your boy’s name
    keith…yes!….no kieth!

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  154. Matt, the clip from the wonderful “Hail! Hail! Rock and Roll” is great. Keith Richards revealed later in an interview that when the concert was recorded for the movie he had the engineers run a splitter off Chuck’s guitar, the split signal was run to a mesa boogie amp set to optimum Chuck Berry gain settings in one of the downstairs dressing rooms, that was the amp that was recorded. It show’s a lot about Keith’s character that he let Mr. Berry have “face” but still took steps to insure that the guitar was recorded properly.

    I stumbled across this John Lennon quote on wikipedia, “if you tried to give rock and roll another name, you might call it ‘Chuck Berry’.”

    I also found out that Maybellene was an adaptation of a “Country” song called “Ida Red” and had Willie Dixon on bass and Jerome from Bo Diddley’s band on maracas. Pretty neat.

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  155. >>I stumbled across this John Lennon quote on wikipedia, “if you tried to give rock and roll another name, you might call it ‘Chuck Berry’.”

    Paul: Ha! I was going to include that exact quote, but I was concerned additional references to that band in this thread would be like shouting “Hip-hop!” in a crowded Bowie album. 🙂

    Chuck Berry is wonderful — I’ve always thought he was most innovative as a lyricist, actually. As I said, I don’t think genres are more than marketing conventions … But if we must pick a founder for this one, I’ll endorse him.

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  156. “I also found out that Maybellene was an adaptation of a “Country” song called “Ida Red”….good example of how “race music” and “hillbilly music” was the genesis of rock and roll.

    As Dave was saying the British Invasion probably did “electrify” folk as a major element of the new “rock” sound…but they all started with the 12 bars of chuck berry (and T-Bone).

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  157. BTW, RE the “Queen of Rock ‘n’ Roll”: Little Richard has always been pretty candid that he copped much of his schtick from Esquerita.

    But while I find T-Bone Walker stacks up to Chuck Berry as a guitarist, Little Richard (to me) is clearly more talented than the former Eskew Reeder. So image isn’t everything … It just tends to comprise a large part of what defines a “genre.”

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  158. I’m not too surprised to see Chuck D list Elvis along with other Rock and Rollers as artists he enjoyed listening to, I think in his lyrics he “exaggerates for clarity”. (I wouldn’t characterize that as a list of influences though, he’s speaking to the question “other than hip-hop what musical styles do you prefer ?”and making the point that since the musical basis of “Hip Hop” is an amalgam of different musics, created by DJs, the best DJ/creators have been, and will be, the ones with widest musical knowledge “outside of hip hop”.

    Thinking and talking about genres (what the starting and ending points were, who the key figures were, what the defining characteristics were) can be an interesting exercise, not just from a marketing standpoint, but also from a standpoint of what is included and left out of different musics and why (the values of different artists). It’s not just marketing people and critics who engage in this kind of study either. Many artists are keenly aware of the values set forth in different musics. At various times artists with similar values are attracted to each others work. In other cases (“Punk Rock” f’rinstance) Artists make a point of rejecting the core values shared by existing groups of artists, asserting their own values, and are happy to be excluded from the older Scene, Genre or Movement. Here’s a classic case.

    The chorus of the tune “Wot Do You Call It” pokes fun at those who must put styles of music in to categories. The verses describe how Wiley and his cohorts fell out with the “Garage” scene and then left the scene to start a new scene more in line with their values. The video shows one of the “Eskimo Dances” thrown by Wiley (the first shot of the video shows a flier for an Eskimo Dance), some random street runnings and also Wiley and company picking up some white labels from the pressing plant. Wiley made his name with a slew of very succesful white label 12″ singles, as well as MC Battles at Raves and on “Road” DVDs, and Pirate Radio.
    This was one of the big Wiley white labels.

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  159. honestly folks….it was the barrelhouse piano style of johnnie johnson that gave the brown eyed hansome man liberty to pattern
    his guitar style after……james brown hisself credited the compositions of charlie rich that inspired the new funk…sure it was the one he beat to death but check out that 7!!!!

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  160. drummer smokey johnson is the king of rocknroll
    without those heavy hands fats domino didnt stand a chance
    $$$$$$$
    lets give the drummers some…..

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  161. >>(I wouldn’t characterize that as a list of influences though, he’s speaking to the question “other than hip-hop what musical styles do you prefer ?”and making the point that since the musical basis of “Hip Hop” is an amalgam of different musics, created by DJs, the best DJ/creators have been, and will be, the ones with widest musical knowledge “outside of hip hop”.

    Paul: I think we’re still using the term “influence” in ways that are subtly but significantly different. And what makes it even harder to nail down is that I at least haven’t quite settled on my definition!

    I have an easier time listing what influence doesn’t have to be, IMO. “Influence” doesn’t have to mean “like” or even “know.” Influence can be indirect; it can be negative, like the way ’70s rock excess influenced kids to start punk* bands in reaction. I think the only assertion I can make about influence so far is that one way or another — positive or negative, aware or unaware — it creates a change in approach.

    Many posts ago, you mentioned the influence of the Beach Boys on popular music. To millions of people (probably most people outside a very specific Boomer demographic), they’re a bland, pleasant soundtrack at water parks, guest stars on “Full House” and passengers on Macy’s Thanksgiving floats.

    I believe, however, that when you talk about their “influence,” you’re not referring to stripy shirts and John Stamos.

    Instead, I think you’re thinking of the vocal harmonies, studio techniques, instrumental innovations and compositions that directly inspired everyone from the Who to Gerry and the Pacemakers (who acknowledge they created their epic album “Lieutenant Les’ Big Green Pleasure Machine” at least in part as their own answer to “Pet Sounds”).

    And I think your point is that their influence goes beyond that one degree of separation … That echoes of the Beach Boys’ sound filtered through those primary influences still count. I.e., those Beach Boys harmonies turn up in work by artists who’d never consider themselves Beach Boys fans.

    —————--

    *See? I’m as prone to use genre shorthand as anyone else. 🙂

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  162. PS, as usual: There are few things more annoying than having words put into one’s mouth.

    Paul, forgive me in advance if I’m making bogus assumptions about how you see “influence,” the Beach Boys or any other point on the way. I’m honestly intrigued because I think this is a super-tricky point to communicate in English. Please knock down what I just built up.

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  163. >>perhaps the term response can be used in place of influence

    Lou: It’s an interesting idea! I do think “influence” has kind of come to mean emulation on some level. And like Paul observes, I dunno that Chuck D would say he’s emulating Elvis … Or maybe he would — Chuck D and I don’t chat often, and it’s usually more about the kids and minor medical complaints. (Sometimes we exchange recipes.)

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  164. Chuck D came by for coffee this morning and told me he’s emulating Gerry and the Pacemakers. And that I am more smokin’ hot every time he sees me.

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  165. Matt, I was actually just trying to keep you from putting words in Chuck D’s mouth. I don’t know how to say it any plainer than I did above. (quoted below for the scroll weary).

    “I’m not too surprised to see Chuck D list Elvis along with other Rock and Rollers as artists he enjoyed listening to,”
    and
    “(I wouldn’t characterize that as a list of influences though, he’s speaking to the question “other than hip-hop what musical styles do you prefer ?”and making the point that since the musical basis of “Hip Hop” is an amalgam of different musics, created by DJs, the best DJ/creators have been, and will be, the ones with widest musical knowledge “outside of hip hop”.”

    You stated

    >Instead, I think you’re thinking of the vocal harmonies, studio techniques, instrumental innovations and compositions that directly inspired everyone from the Who to Gerry and the Pacemakers (who acknowledge they created their epic album “Lieutenant Les’ Big Green Pleasure Machine” at least in part as their own answer to “Pet Sounds”).

    And I think your point is that their influence goes beyond that one degree of separation … That echoes of the Beach Boys’ sound filtered through those primary influences still count. I.e., those Beach Boys harmonies turn up in work by artists who’d never consider themselves Beach Boys fans.

    Yeah, but a lot of bands were fans, Kraftwerk for instance, and the Beatles. Here’s a quote from McCartney

    “It was Pet Sounds that blew me out of the water. I love the album so much. I’ve just bought my kids each a copy of it for their education in life … I figure no one is educated musically ’til they’ve heard that album … I love the orchestra, the arrangements … it may be going overboard to say it’s the classic of the century … but to me, it certainly is a total, classic record that is unbeatable in many ways … I’ve often played Pet Sounds and cried. I played it to John [Lennon] so much that it would be difficult for him to escape the influence … it was the record of the time. The thing that really made me sit up and take notice was the bass lines … and also, putting melodies in the bass line. That I think was probably the big influence that set me thinking when we recorded Pepper, it set me off on a period I had then for a couple of years of nearly always writing quite melodic bass lines. “God Only Knows” is a big favourite of mine … very emotional, always a bit of a choker for me, that one. On “You Still Believe in Me”, I love that melody -- that kills me … that’s my favourite, I think … it’s so beautiful right at the end … comes surging back in these multi-coloured harmonies … sends shivers up my spine”

    And this from Beatles Co-conspirator George Martin,

    “Without Pet Sounds, Sgt. Pepper wouldn’t have happened… Pepper was an attempt to equal Pet Sounds.”

    No degrees of separation there that I can see.

    To be fair Brian Wilson did state the following, “I really wasn’t quite ready for the unity. It felt like it all belonged together. Rubber Soul was a collection of songs … that somehow went together like no album ever made before, and I was very impressed. I said, “That’s it. I really am challenged to do a great album.” ”

    So, the Beatles directly inspired Brian Wilson, who upped the ante and directly inspired the Beatles back. That’s what culture is all about.

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  166. Great telling of that story, Paul…always amazes me the respect these guys had for each other and the influence they shared. Sgt. Pepper and Pet Sounds….

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  167. Paul: Absolutely, I understand the direct, positive effect that those bands stated they had on each other. Those guys also had social contact and comparable access to recording budgets and distribution channels.

    I still think there are other kinds of “influence” than that and that they also propel culture.

    RE putting words in Chuck D’s mouth: That’s always the risk of quoting any third party who’s not in the conversation. And again, it depends on what you mean by “influence” … If it includes “to learn about something and make aesthetic choices (inclusion or exclusion) based on what you find out,” then I think Chuck D is talking about influence when he lists those ’50s musicians.

    But then again, maybe I’m just the guy behind Woody Allen in the movie line:

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  168. I know! He said it’s best freshly grated. So true. Also, never skimp on the ricotta. That does it- next time we all get together and have a lasagna party. We can all jam our favorite Gerry and the Pacemakers tunes.

    In a different frame of mind, I’d talk more about how we don’t necessarily know all of what influences what we do and that identity as a musician involves more than the act of setting notes to music. But, at the moment, it’s taking all I got to a-wassail, which takes priority. I don’t have a full two cents to offer.

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  169. “Maxwell’s Silver Hammer” was my favorite song back when it was on the radio. I must have been 3 or 4. That said, I feel like Paul McCartney and Wings were more influential on my childhood than the Beatles. I seem to recall hearing them more often on the radio in the mid-seventies (or maybe the Beatles tunes were so familiar when they came on as to be unremarkable), and songs like “Jet” and “Band on the Run” just seemed charged with the same kind of electricity as, for example, a “Benny and the Jets” or “Turn to Stone,” perfect for long bike rides. I had a purple Schwinn Stingray (or was it Spider?) with a banana seat, and a transistor radio taped to the handlebars. Sigh.

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  170. To Robin’s point, someone once stated that Metallica was influenced by Charlie Parker. It seems a little doubtful to me that Metallica spent much of their formative years sitting around trasncribing Charlie Parker solos, but that’s not what they meant. What they meant was, Charlie Parkers influence on modern music was so great that it worked it’s way in to the big band jazz soundtracks of 60s cartoons, thereby influencing Metallica.

    Sorta like Robin Harris’s “Will the man, that’s sittin’ next to the man, that’s sittin’ next to the G*$%@^n man…”

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  171. Metallic. Butofcourse. At least the seat was definitely sparkly. I also remember some pretty awesome rides up and down the hills of Casa de Oro to the Star Wars theme by Meco and “You Light Up My Life” by Debbie Boone. Heck, I thought “Da Doo Ron Ron” by Shaun Cassidy was pretty awesome at the time. One of my first girlfriends in 5th grade was a big Bay City Rollers fan, and I followed suit. Maybe I’m not the best judge of quality. Yeah, I should be disqualified.

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  172. “sharley parka is still a contemporary mudda sukka”….as I’m finding out…the hard way…the only way to seriously study jazz guitar is to transcribe his solos….aaaaarrrggghhh!!

    “someone once stated that Metallica was influenced by Charlie Parker”…perhaps in a bizzaro world context?? Metallica only play minor pentatonic scale solos, Parker played the changes…a world of difference. One could argue that Leonin and Perotin had an equal influence.

    BTW, Bay City Rollers rock!

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  173. I remember loving both the purple sparkly and matte, and debating whether the sparkly was an added bonus or a distraction from the pure awesomeness of bright purple.

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  174. Paul, I remember that commentary about Parker’s influence. I can’t remember details; and Google is not helping. It may have been Larry Carlton. The point was that bebop’s tempo and rhythm extended beyond jazz to rock & roll, and ultimately to the signature riffs of heavy metal bands.

    Metalocalypse had an episode with a nod to Bird- maybe the producers saw/read the same commentary?

    Love and joy come to you, and to you your wassail too!

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